Gay marriage "OK" - common law marriages next?

     With the Supreme Court now requiring a same-sex marriage performed in one State be recognized in all states, is there hope for Colorado’s common law married couples facing similar problems?
     Like same-sex marriage, common law marriage has been illegally banned in some states as well.  Indeed, only 9 States (Alabama, Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, and Utah) recognize common law marriage.
     For those unfamiliar with the institution, common law marriage is a marriage without religious or secular endorsement. It is a business contract, and they may occur (like all business contracts) with or without written agreement.  Contractual obligations of the marriage are often inferred, and are sometimes non-exclusive (as has been the case with even some of Colorado’s leading citizens who took upon themselves multiple common law, er, contracts in evasion of polygamy laws). 
     The reason common law marriages are banned in several states is because they are seen typically as truly wild, uninhibited, natural acts of love which troubles neither the conscience of the husband(s) and/or wife(s) or that of any potential God holding a position of authority over them.  They are considered a threat to public morality. 
Incidentally, most common law marriages are made because of an atheistic opposition to religious marriage, or a political opposition to government-licensed marriage – justifying the moral opposition of governments and religions.
But since they originate out of a basic expression of a constitutional right to freedom of association, the Courts have upheld this human right.  When challenged, courts typically uphold the rights of people to undertake common law marriage and, in the past, have forced other states to recognize common law marriage undertaken in other states.
The legal basis for this is founded under the full faith and credit clause of the U.S. Constitution, principles of comity and their rules for choice of law and conflict of laws.

     That the Supreme Court has upheld the principle of comity again with application to same-sex marriage gives hope to all those common-law married persons who face similar illegal challenges to their marriages from states opposed to common law marriage.

2 Search and rescues in one day at RMNP

By Kyle Patterson, Rocky Mountain National Park - - - At 9:30 a.m. rangers were notified by cell phone that Chris LeGault, 48, from Lyons, Colorado, had taken a reported 50 foot fall while backcountry skiing on Sundance Mountain.  LeGault had landed in rocks suffering numerous injuries.   Rocky Mountain National Park Search and Rescue personnel reached him at 11:45 a.m.  They performed a technical evacuation lowering LeGault through snow, rocks and dense brush eventually reaching Old Fall River Road at 7:30 p.m. He was taken by ambulance to Estes Park Medical Center.  Twenty personnel were involved in this rescue.  Park search and rescue team members were assisted by two members of Douglas County Search and Rescue.  

     At noon, park rangers were notified by cell phone that Jesse Keller, 24, from Fort Collins, Colorado, had taken a reported 150 foot tumbling fall down The Homestretch on the Keyhole Route on Longs Peak.  Rangers were able to speak with Keller and he indicated he had suffered injuries but would attempt to continue down on his own.   Rangers left the Longs Peak Trailhead with the intent to assist Keller on the way down.  Their efforts were hampered by severe weather and lightning.  Rangers reached Keller at 8:30 p.m. at the Keyhole.  They assisted him through The Boulder Field and spent the night in the Boulder Field with him.  At 8:00 a.m. this morning Fuller was flown by Lifeguard One to Medical Center of the Rockies.  Park Search and Rescue Team members reached the trailhead at 11:00 a.m. this morning they were assisted by four members of Larimer County Search and Rescue.

Elbert County undertakes secret governance

Kiowa, Colorado - - - Elbert County is now requiring citizens perform a costly FOIA request to observe the contents of the consent agenda prior to or at a regular meeting of County Commissioners. This may be, in fact, an illegal obstruction of due process which prevents citizen oversight of government activities: preventing citizens from knowing what is being voted upon by their representatives, the acts of government become a secret.

Elbert County obstructs FOIA requests

By JA Roberts, Colorado Freedom of Information Coalition -  - - Real estate records, with few exceptions, are public in Colorado. Want to know the assessed value of your neighbor’s property? In most counties you can look it up online, no matter who your neighbor happens to be.
But in Elbert County, southeast of Denver, the assessment records of certain elected officials – including Assessor Billie Mills – are hidden from public view.
You can’t find them on the county’s website. And when the Colorado Freedom of Information Coalition showed up in person at the assessor’s office in Kiowa, we were told we couldn’t see the information without first getting permission from the elected official whose records have been flagged as confidential.
“It’s not a matter of hiding the value,” Mills told the CFOIC. “I know that’s what everyone is saying, but it’s a safety thing.”
Mills said the county commission decided “many years ago” that Elbert’s elected officials should be allowed to request that their assessment records be hidden if they felt that public disclosure of the information might put them in danger.
“The people in this county have a tendency to threaten us,” Mills said. “We get threats (against) our houses and our families.” Someone once threatened to bomb her home, she said.
When we first interviewed Mills a week ago Thursday, she said she would give the CFOIC permission to see the assessment records on her own property, “but if you asked for the treasurer’s (assessment), I wouldn’t give it to you” without checking with him first. Same for the county clerk and a county commissioner.
Assessment records, however, are supposed to be publicly available under the Colorado Open Records Act (CORA).
Although no state law requires county assessors to put the information on the Internet, media law attorney Michael Beylkin said “nothing in CORA allows public officials to withhold records that would disclose the tax assessment on a particular real estate property, including the name and address of the owner.”
“There is nothing I am aware of that allows an elected official to not have their assessment records available” to the public, added state property tax administrator JoAnn Groff.
Indeed, Elbert County finally made the assessment records available for inspection after the CFOIC submitted a formal CORA request letter. We picked up copies on Thursday, a week after we first asked for them in person and were told we needed permission from each elected official.
What changed in a week?
“The reason you were able to get the records that you requested was because you requested (them) through an open records request,” Mills said in an email.
As of Friday, the records still could not be found on the assessor’s website.
Gunnison County Assessor Kristy McFarland, president of the Colorado Assessors’ Association, said she hadn’t heard of any other assessor’s office in Colorado blocking the property assessment information of elected officials on county websites.
“I can’t think of any reason why that information should be hidden,” McFarland said. “People who work in government really need to make sure everything they do is transparent. I feel strongly about that.”
Colorado allows certain residents to request that some property information be kept confidential. Under the Address Confidentiality Program, a victim of domestic violence, sexual assault or stalking may apply for a substitute address to hide the location of an actual residence. State law also protects the online personal information of law-enforcement personnel.
Mills said several judges and people in law enforcement in Elbert County have had their information taken offline, including the elected county sheriff. As of a week ago Thursday, the elected officials with hidden assessments were Mills, Commissioner Robert Rowland, Treasurer Richard Pettitt, Clerk and Recorder Dallas Schroeder and former Commissioner Kurt Schlegel, who left office in January.
Former Commissioner John Shipper’s assessment information also wasn’t available, although his address was visible on the assessor’s website. After the CFOIC brought this to Mills’ attention, she said the Shipper example was a computer glitch. By that afternoon, his assessment data was on the website.
Mills also lifted confidentiality restrictions on former Commissioner Schlegel’s home as well as business property owned by Pettitt. “No, I don’t think it would” qualify for confidentiality, Mills said when the CFOIC asked why the treasurer’s business property assessment wasn’t available.
The assessment records of Commissioners Kelly Dore and Larry Ross are not hidden from view on the county’s website. Neither are the records of Coroner Mike Graeff and Surveyor Keith Westfall.
Rowland, who is chairman of the county commission, declined to answer questions about the county policy that Mills referenced or his reasons for keeping his own assessment information hidden on the county’s website. He referred questions to County Attorney Wade Gateley.
Gateley also wouldn’t comment on the policy mentioned by Mills, saying he hadn’t researched the issue.
Several days later, after the CFOIC submitted an open-records request for any documents related to such a policy, we were told in a letter “there are no records in the possession of Elbert County which are responsive to your request.”
Home addresses for Elbert County’s elected officials are in other public records such as voter registration databases and campaign finance filings on the Colorado secretary of state’s website. The public also can find their deeds and other property records on the county’s website.
Mills said the assessment cards often contain more detailed information about a house, including photos and floor plans – the type of information someone could use to see “where everything is in your home.”
“People have no clue how crazy (some) people are,” Mills said. “I know that people are trying to push that I’m hiding stuff and that we’re all doing it. No, it’s because we are threatened … They’re trying to make a thing out of this and it’s all due to safety.”
Changing the policy would be up to the commissioners, she said. “That wouldn’t be my decision to make.” The CFOIC also sought comment from Commissioners Dore and Ross, but they did not return phone calls.
Mills said any member of the public could ask to have photos and floor plans of their homes hidden from public view, but not the rest of their assessment records. So why wouldn’t the elected officials do the same? Why not post their assessments without the photos and floor plans?
“That was what the commissioners decided,” Mills said, “so that it would be totally confidential.”
Luis Toro, director of Colorado Ethics Watch and a CFOIC board member, questioned whether safety was the real reason for the hidden assessments.

“It strikes me as far more likely that the reason for hiding the assessments would be to cover up some sort of favorable treatment they may be getting from the assessor,” he said.

No obstruction of free speech in taking down of Confederate Flag

With the people of these states desiring to remove the confederate flags from their government places, they are expressing a new self-identity. When and other businesses wish to boycott the flag, they are expressing disgust at what the flag stood and stands for.  There has been no obstruction of free speech, nor any banning of the flag. Everyone who still believes in the symbol is free to carry it and display it – and we strongly commend the Peoples of these states for choosing not to do so in official capacities.

Shannon Reyes protects her fellow miners

Cripple Creek, Colorado - - - Shannon Reyes was recognized by Caterpillar, Inc., for success in dramatically decreasing operator-induced errors.
Shannon spent three years operating haul trucks for Freeport-McMoRan in Bagdad, Arizona mining copper and molybdenum before returning home and joining CC&V.
Within 5 months of working for CC&V, she was designated as a field trainer, and for the last year-and-a-half she has performed as CC&V's Haul Truck Training Coordinator. CC&V operates 24, state of the art, high-tech Caterpillar (CAT) 793 Haul Trucks. Each truck is 27' wide, 22' tall and 43' long, and has the capability of moving over 250 tons of mined material per load.  After the mining operations have been publicly permitted, including approved and bonded reclamation plans, CC&V's mining operations proceed like this: first, exploration takes place to identify rock containing gold (known as ore); then holes are drilled in the earth and loaded with explosives. After detonation, the broken rock is loaded on enormous haul trucks with mechanized shovels. The CAT 793 Haul Trucks are powered by 2415 HP diesel engines, have computer systems on board that monitor their operating conditions, and cost around $5 million dollars each.
These trucks are highly sophisticated, using computer hardware and software to track operating conditions like: physical location, speed, emergencies, weights, engine rpms, operating temperatures and pressures, as well as transmission issues. This data is transmitted wirelessly to CC&V dispatchers, maintenance, mine operations and CAT's dealer in Colorado, Wagner Equipment. This data is then utilized to reduce operator errors - increasing the efficiency and life expectancy of a very expensive, very large piece of machinery. With the assistance of Wagner/CAT, and the diligent efforts of CC&V's haul truck operators, Shannon coordinated the training to reduce the operator driven errors on CC&V's trucks by over 50% since November 2014.
Shannon likes her job. And she is good at it. Her professional experience has given her skills that are recognized by her management, co-workers, and CAT Global. She is excited by the opportunity and possibility of how she can contribute to the efficiency of CC&V's team effort. Receiving this international award was important recognition of those efforts, for both Shannon and CC&V, but at the end of the day, for Shannon, it's all about taking care of her three boys and her "second family" at CC&V.
     With the assistance of her mine operations and maintenance team, it's Shannon's job to coordinate the training of operators on how to use the powerful, high-tech, CAT 793 Haul Truck efficiently. As she says: "If we take care of our trucks, they will take care of us!" And she is really good at her job.
She smiles, and a twinkle comes to her eye, as Shannon Reyes talks about her three sons: Damian, age 9, who is into sports and loves animals; Dylan, age 7, who can put a smile on anyone's face; and Devon, age 6, who wants to fix everything - even if it's not broken!
These boys are the primary reason why Shannon performs the important, highly skilled, and unique job she has. Other reasons include: She feels like her co-workers are her second family - "We care about each other. We watch out for each other."  She acknowledges that she has a rewarding job; plus she enjoys coming to work every day - "It's like playing in a big sandbox!"
But Shannon knows this isn't play, because she trains people for a serious business.

Poor and middle class don't have to pay ACA penalty

     If you do not have health insurance, you may be required to pay a tax penalty.  To assist in compliance, the ACA provides subsidies to help the poorest Americans afford health insurance, but many states (for political reasons) opposed accepting the federal assistance to help poor taxpayers afford insurance.  And, some States also opt to not provide assistance to middle class taxpayers.
However, you do not need to be a victim of politics.  While you may still not be able to afford insurance until politicians work things out, poor and middle class taxpayers at least qualify for exemptions which protect them from the penalties for not purchasing insurance. 
First, however, it should be said there are lots of good reasons for poor and middle class families to get health insurance.  And catastrophic insurance is often affordable - even if you can’t afford regular insurance.  Yes, catastrophic insurance doesn’t cover much, but it does effectively mitigate the risks of a catastrophe in your family that would, without such insurance, might bankrupt you.
     That being said, if the ACA policies cost more than 8% of your income, you will not be penalized if you do not purchase them.  The ACA policies for adults begin at about $200 per month, and for children they begin at about $120 per month, so…

Number family members - - Approximate maximum income for exemption

1 adult - - - - - - - - - $30,000
2 adults- - - - - - - - - $60,000
1 adult + 1 child - - - - $48,000
2 adults + 1 child- - - - $78,000

Certainly you’ll want to consult with your family’s accountant, but the spirit and letter of the law are not intended to harm the middle class who would not qualify for the subsidies given to the poor.

     All you need to do is file Form 8965 with your tax return.


Wir fahr'n fahr'n fahr'n auf der Autobahn
When people talk about the German Autobahn, most people think about one thing, you can go as fast as you want! While this is true, there are a ton of rules and exceptions when it comes to the ‘no speed limit’ rule.
StVO is what Germany calls their traffic laws for their public roads. The third law listed is everyone’s favorite, because it’s what states that there is no speed limit.
“Auto” means “car”, obviously, and “Bahn” means “way,” just in case you were wondering. Also, once you see those blue and white signs, just know that the rules of the Autobahn now apply.
First of all, let’s get one thing straight. Hitler was not entirely responsible for the Autobahn, as this was an idea that had been previously created. However, he was responsible for pushing Germany to implement the system throughout the country.
The Autobahn is actually really safe. Only about 6% of deadly traffic accidents happen on the Autobahn, while the rest occur on smaller roads that have speed limits.
It’s actually not as easy as you’d think to go as fast as you want on the Autobahn. You are only allowed to pass someone on the left, and frequently, people like to hang out in the furthest left lane and go slow. So, in order to get past them and put your pedal to the metal, you have to wait for them to get over. Some people just don't understand the rules of the road, and they really make it difficult for everyone else.
Many cars have governors built in that prevent them from reaching speeds above a certain level. Many people who drive on the Autobahn do not like this, so there are shops that will remove them for you. This of course leads to issues with insurance companies and it will most likely devoid the warranty on the car.
Just because there are no posted speed limits, this does not mean that you are protected from the law. When you reach speeds above 80 MPH, if you get into an accident, your speed can be used against you even if the accident was not your fault at all.
So, there are actually parts of the Autobahn that have speed limits. I know, it goes against everything that you previously knew, but in big metropolitan areas, there have to be speed limits in place.
There are a ton of sneaky unmarked police cars that cruise the Autobahn. Since there is no speed limit, they make their money with different kinds of traffic violations and since they are unmarked, they catch quite a few people.
When driving, it is written in law that you must maintain a safe driving distance between yourself and the person in front of you. It’s called Sicherheitsabstand. Say that one five times fast.
Police cars that are not unmarked are actually quite beastly. They are all tuned up to make sure to be able to keep up with some of the extremely fast cars that frequent the Autobahn. Basically you’re going to get caught no matter what kind of car you’re in. However, police chases like you see on TV do not happen on the Autobahn as German law doesn’t allow the police to put innocent people in danger. So, technically, people can and do outrun the police.

The main reason that Germany is able to maintain the ‘no speed limit’ rule is because of the fact that the roads are so flat and smooth, just like an airport runway. Hefty taxes in Germany allow for the roads to be very well maintained so that nobody hits a pothole going 150 MPH.

Swami Mukundananda coming to Centennial

Parker, Colorado – Swami Mukundananda will be teaching contentment and peace of mind through mind management tools such as awareness, yoga, contemplation, and selfless love.  The free lectures and yoga classes will be held at the Shri Shirdi Saibaba Temple in Centennial in a 7 day series, July 18-24. 
All sessions will be followed by Mahaprasad.
     July 18 and 19, the sessions begin at 4pm, and will begin with an hour of yoga before the lecture, concluding at 6:30pm.
     July 20, 21, and 24, lectures will begin at 8pm and last about an hour and a half.  July 23, the lecture will begin at 5pm.
Swami Mukundananda is a renowned bhakti yog saint, yoga teacher, and a senior disciple of Jagadguru Shree Kripaluji Maharaj.He is the pioneer of the ground breaking Yogic system, “Jagadguru Kripaluji Yog”.
Over the last 25 years, Swamiji has inspired hundreds of thousands of seekers on the path of spirituality. His profound knowledge of  many holy scriptures makes him a highly sought after scholar. He reveals the ancient esoteric knowledge with rigorous scientific logic, in a modern context.   Using logic and a scientific approach, Swamiji offers new ways of understanding and applying the knowledge of the scriptures in our daily lives. He dispels various myths and misnomers associated with many paths of God-realization, and his words penetrate even the toughest minds with his depth of understanding and scriptural veracity.
In his lectures, Swamiji answers such questions which have always puzzled people and shows the clear, simple truth.

The Subtopics are:

July 18, 4pm-6:30pm: Unleash the power of your mind: Your best friend & your worst enemy
July 19, 4pm-6:30pm: Mind Management Tools: Harmony in Work-Life balance
July 20, 8pm-9:30pm: The Art of Surrendering: Develop Contentment & Peace of Mind.
July 21, 8pm-9:30pm:Technique of Visualization: Power of Subconscious mind
July 22, 8pm-9:30pm: Essence of Yoga & Meditation: The missing link in our lives
July 23, 5pm-6:30pm: Contemplation & Practice: Transform your thinking
July 24, 8pm-9:30pm: Attract Abundance through Selfless Love: It is in Giving that we receive

What the Confederate flag means to me

By Gary Twohorse Green
First off, it is a symbol of home. I live in the South, I have been to 48 of 50 States. I have been to 8 Countries, two of them Dictatorships. I have seen how others live, eaten their food, shared their stories, drank their beer.

The rudest people I ever came across (besides New Yorkers) have been the French. The friendliest were the Germans.

Yet, the people in the South I have found to be the friendliest people in the United States. Be they be black, brown, red, or white, I can sit down with a total southern stranger and leave with a new friend.
I will be the first to admit we have our crackpots and our loonies. And most of the time we will wheel them out into the parlour to show the neighbors what we have to put up with.

Most guys with rifles and firearms, I have found, are responsible owners. They hunt, they plink, they put them in gun lockers.

Sadly, many have never been further than the County Line so they do not know what life is out there. Maybe because the South never really recovered from the War.

Prior to hostilities, many Plantations were finding slave ownership was becoming a major financial drain and many were looking for a way out and not crashing the economy. After all, the North was buying Cotton and Tobacco for pennies on the dollar and profiting reselling to Europe. The Plantations were hanging on by their fingertips. Then came the war. After the war, all the slaves were freed and carpet baggers came. They bought up many antebellum homes for fire sale prices. Since many men were killed during the war, there was no one left to run the massive operations.

To many Southerners, the gloating of the North was just too much to bear. We were devastated, homeless, hungry and angry. Sure, Lincoln made the Southern Soldier sign an oath of fealty to never rise up again, but that was about it.

Since then there has been a simmering rage against the North. Perhaps if the North shoved it's holier than thou attitude and helped the South transition from a slave based agriculture to one that was more fair, then we may never of had a war.

Yes, we had Plantation Owners, descendants of those who bought head rights while living in England and who developed a God like complex, not wanting to lose their slaves, rail against the North for destroying their livelihood. These were the rich landowners, the ones along the James River, for example. They thought they could send young men who were barely eking out a living to fight a war against an industrial based foe and win.

We didn't.

Since Shermans March to the sea, the only thing many people of the south have to cling to, is their flag. Everything else, they feel, is gone. They are ridiculed, painted as losers in every facet of life, and made fun of.

I feel for these people. Yes, slavery was wrong, but they received no assistance to end it. Now, states in the South are the poorest in the Nation and their Governors are not helping one bit. Taxes go up on the least wealthy and down for those with money to burn. Thanks to the Education System in many states, people are under educated. They have been convinced there is a sky daddy who will help them with all of their problems. Many are in Poverty and have been that way for 150 years.

I hate what we as Southerners have to go through just so detractors can get their pound of flesh. It is not enough we lost, our detractors want the South, its customs and its History, to be abolished. They literally want the South to go away.

I stand with the Confederacy, warts and all, like you stand with the U.S., warts and all. I will not back down, I will not bend to your will. I am a Rebel who loves the lazy days of Southern Living, of good food, warm friends and who loves an area were a mans handshake is as good as his word. Where women can do just as much as man yet be feminine when warranted.

You yankees can keep your fake people, your money driven society, I will live where Sunday means Fried Chicken for Supper, Bacon and eggs for Breakfast. Where biscuits are made from scratch and the greens we ate have origins in Africa.

Yeah, the South is home.

"You ain't just whistlin' Dixie
You ain't just slapping your knee
I'm a Grandson of the Southland, boys.
An Heir to the Confederacy.

So put me down there where I want to be
Plant my feet with the Robert E. Lee
Bury my bones under a Cyprus Tree
But, never let me roam."

EDITOR’S RESPONSE - - - It's well written, but could be expanded on a few points: since the south fired the first shots and invaded the north, why was there no simmering rage before the war - what is the real source of that rage? Also, with many slave holding states not requiring transitional assistance into an industrialized economy (like Connecticut, Rhode Island, etc.), what were the circumstances in the south that required greater transitional assistance - especially considering some Southern states had already completed a transition to an industrialized economy (like Georgia and Louisiana) and others had major or sometimes primary industries unaffected by slave labor sources (such as mining, timbering and fishing)? Also, it may be exaggeration that the South has nothing to hold onto or be proud of beside a failed war?

Cathy Voisard responds - - - I haven't weighed in on this, because I respect you Gary and I know where your mind is at regarding this. But I just thought I'd add my 2 cents and why people have a problem with it. What the Confederate flag means, as written by William Thompson, the Savannah, Georgia Daily Morning News editor who designed it in April, 1863.The following is Thompson quoted in an excerpt from the book Our Flag by George Preble:
" As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematic of our cause. Upon a red flag would stand forth our southern cross, gemmed with the stars of our confederation, all combined, preserving in beautiful contrast, the red, white and blue….."
"Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN'S FLAG."

And yes, he capitalized those last words.

Sabrina Marxuach Hurst responds - - - Sorry, I have no pity for the South. None. As a mixed race person I have experienced racism in the South because as a child my african & spanish heritage was readily apparent. The Confederate flag has always meant white superiority, always & now it represents hate. No more flag, retire it to the dust of history!!!!!!

EDITOR’S RESPONSE - - - I think it is important, however, to have a dialogue wherein those who love the flag can understand what it means to others. I refuse to believe that there are many people who would fly the flags of the confederacy knowing that it causes fear and represents hatred.

Robert Thomasson responds - - - A flag is a piece of cloth that represents a system of beliefs. It is supposed to represent all of the people within a political boundary. I get the Southern view. My ancestors fought for the confederacy and it has always been a topic of great pride within my family. Those that cling to the battle flag of the Confederacy believe they are within their rights to wave that flag. But to suggest that this flag, that was resurrected by the likes of George Wallace to represent the defiance of the anti-segregation of the late 1950's and early 1960's, represents all the grand traditions of the South is not only inaccurate but callous. You see, whether you or my family wishes to acknowledge it or not, the agricultural South was economically dependent on slavery and any argument that it was not about that central issue is in denial. One man, owning another man is the epitome of supremacy. When you degrade another person to that level you encourage immoral behavior that includes torture and murder. That is what the battle flag of the Confederacy represents to those whose ancestors were slaves. The symbol therefore only represents whites and cannot be viewed as a legitimate symbol of what is good about the South. The following picture is what the flag represents to a significant number of African Americans. There is no legitimacy to this falsehood. I appreciate the vast amount of what you have to report. On this, we can never agree.